He has a point. There has been a gradual and not so subtle distortion of language in American society. "Guy" has become an androgynous appellation which disregards distinctions of gender and marital status. In the Revolution, there was a leveling of society so that people were stripped of their social standing. Now people are being stripped of their very gender. Gender is an intrinsic part of how we identify ourselves and being deprived of it in public is an abasement of basic human dignity.
What is the answer? I am trying to remember how a family group was addressed when I was a small child in Maryland, before everyone became a guy. I think that in casual situations, people were called "you folks" but the most common designation was "y'all." We forget that the word "you" was originally intended as formal and plural, whereas in old English the intimate, familiar and singular adress was "thee" and "thou." The language has drastically changed, of course. However, "you" is still plural when speaking to more than one person so the addition of "all" or "folks" or "guys" is redundant, I think. Still, when out with my family, "you folks" or "you all" is highly preferable to being called "you guys" as if we were a bunch of men in a sports bar. Share
23 comments:
I had to laugh at this. I feel the same way, it grates on me, too. I can recall seeing a young man, who was a theater usher, addressing two elderly ladies as "you guys". One looked around in confusion wondering who the guys were. The other looked daggers at him.
Good manners are like any skill, I suppose. They have to be practised to be mastered.
It may be that formality is uncomfortable for some people, and irrelevant. For others, setting is everything. If they were relatives of his and he was kidding with them at a family picnic, that would have been different. They might have been more comfortable.
Then again, at a family picnic, the one who looked daggers at him might have socked him. Familiarity breeding contempt and all.
That's pretty funny, Jacqueline. I just don't think our young people are taught any basic social skills.
It also reminds me of how everyone was called "comrade" in Soviet Russia.
LOL! When I first moved "up north" to Virginia and Maryland, "you guys" sounded very foreign and yankee to me. However, I am afraid that the once annoying phrase had found its way into my own usage. I still use "y'all" more often, though!
I think I don't really mind it all that much on a gender basis. I mean, in the romance languages, at least I know in French and Italian which I have studied, the pronoun used to address a group, whether they are all men, or a mix of men and women, uses the masculine plural. So why make a big deal of it in English? It is similar to the "men" vs. "humans" argument. I do not mind being included in the "mankind" reference at all--especially in teh translations of the Bible and in hymns.
I don't know, Gette. If you and I were in a restaurant, it would be just as odd to me for someone to address us as "you men" as "you guys." If I was with my husband and some said to us "you men" it would sound as bizarre. However, if people want to refer to themselves or their friends and family as "guys" in informal situations then it is perfectly acceptable. I just do not know why ladies have to be subjected to it in a formal setting by total strangers.
Yes, it is certainly not a formal usage at all. "Y'all" is also informal, I think. "You all" or just "You" is certainly better.
I wouldn't want to be called "You men" either, hahaha. I was referring to the feminists' gender-inclusive argments, especially towards the Bible and Church hymns.
I understand, Gette. I can't stand gender-inclusive hymns and tampering with gender Sacred Scripture.
I knew you would get lots of comments on this one. It grates on me as well. I detest it.
But Comrade, etc. are poliltical, whereas 'you guys' is because of limited vocabulary, (which becomes more limited by the day). Not only will the next generation not know proper use of the language, they will not know how to spell!!
I use it too - to be friendly I geuss. I suppose it is a form of egalitarianism - I believe it is my generation who started it.
+JMJ+
"You guys" as the new "Comrades!"
It deserves more thought . . .
I have used it, too, Terry, I admit, especially when speaking to my younger brothers. I fear, however, that when young girls are consistently called "guys" then they begin to think of themselves as "one of the guys." It does not help them grow into their "feminine genius" as Pope John Paul II referred to it.
Yes, E. I think "guys" is the new "comrades" and epitomizes the coming triumph of socialism in America.
have you noticed that saying 'You People" is not PC!?!
I confess: I use "you guys" here and there. "Y'All" is best, but it sounds so affectedly southern from a Yankee.
Back in the sixties, I heard lots of different sorority sisters use "you guys" to each other, so I never thought of it bothering the ladies.
I agree, Tubbs, "y'all" is best!!! Yes, I went to an all girls' college where everyone referred to each other as "you guys." That might be where my prejudice began....
On a related note, I remember many young men back in my college days professing preference for young women who were "just one of the guys."
They were attracted to women who wore t-shirts, jeans, baseball caps, talked about sports, swore, loved getting drunk, etc., or, in other words, had lost all their feminine charms.
Elena, I cringed as I read this post. You see, I use that phrase almost all the time (except when I catch myself). I guess you guys (just kidding) can blame it on where I grew up. It still is part of that vernacular.
Esther, I think it is as Georgette says, in many (or most) places in America it has become what "on" is in French, a generalization for a group of people.
I agree with this and am so glad im not alone, being a college student my friends use the phrase all the time i dont, but once when a couple of boys refared me and my friend as "you guys" i refared to them as "you girls" they seemed to find it funny but at least i made my point.
Angelique, I had a friend who did that in college. Pretty funny.
"The Western Confucian said...
'On a related note, I remember many young men back in my college days professing preference for young women who were "just one of the guys."
They were attracted to women who wore t-shirts, jeans, baseball caps, talked about sports, swore, loved getting drunk, etc., or, in other words, had lost all their feminine charms.'"
Western Confucian, it was that way in my college days, too, which is one of the reasons that I did not marry until later in life, when I finally found a man who did not want to marry "one of the guys."
Ugh! Yes. I am from the generation that frequently uses "you guys" to refer to all the people in a group. I strongly dislike hearing it, and I strongly dislike how hard I have to work to at eliminating the habit of saying it!
I think you are right, Elena, about young people not being taught basic social skills. Often when I read excerpts on etiquette, I am shocked by all that I regularly do wrong in social situations! The realization is always painful. I think that's why many shun talk of proper manners -- it is embarrassing to admit having poor manners and requires hard work to overcome old habits.
My husband and I laugh at/are irritated by some other common restaurant banter by waitstaff--"I'm Cole and I'll take care of you today" (sounds like a mafia hit or a hospital stay); "No problem" (when we place our orders; certainly hope not, that's why we're at the restaurant!) and one that always makes us wonder: "How's everything tasting so far?" or "Is everything okay so far?"--"so far?": is the taste going to change soon? or is something bad going to happen to our food?
When you add the plural reference "you guys", as you and others have commented, it just reflects how far our social and civil discourse has declined--because even the restaurant owners don't know that they shold be helping their staff learn how to speak to customers.
Wow. I had no idea that my innocuous little observation about the creeping androgyny and general banality of American English would generate such a heartfelt outpouring of comments; 21, I believe, preceding this one. It appears that we're not alone in our aversion to this sort of thing.
As for everyone who shared a thoughtful comment, all one can says is you gu— …er, folks are terrific.
I have so many difficulties in my life - the first being that i have been in bed for 2 decades because of a careless driver.
I miss my friends, they are scared to come see me, think i will "look weird" or different and eating in a restaurant would be a dream come true.
I just share this so that perhaps everyone who reads this and might get his or her "nose out of joint" will remember to be grateful that you can go out to eat at all, that you have the means and the friends, that you can eat regular food. I do agree that manners have been lost in many areas of life, and appreciate politeness as well. Waiting tables is tough also.
God bless you and remember your blessings :)
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